[TacosWillEatUs]

So I got charged back months ago, and I thought I had learned, but I was stupid enough and got charged back again....there goes another $50......that is all...

[ScorpionBlues]

That is evil :evil:

[PanDulce2012]

yeah lately these become more common i guess we should only accept with high rep people for paypal

[Dando_Real_ITA]

Start to use bitcoins and avoid chargeback risks XD

[serialjoe]

use money pak in us its a gift card, they cant chargeback with moneypak, bitcoin fuck that virtual coin shit, theres more bs and money laundring done with that shit, i hate bc, so yea moneypak bro

[OmegaZero_Alpha]

So lets convince people you're trying to scam them by removing all of the buyer protection from every transaction because I don't know how to deal with paypal chargebacks.

[Dando_Real_ITA]

use money pak in us its a gift card, they cant chargeback with moneypak, bitcoin fuck that virtual coin shit, theres more bs and money laundring done with that shit, i hate bc, so yea moneypak bro

Sure you can use moneypak outside usa... oh, no, you can't. Guess what, I'm not in the usa, I don't use $, but €. Many tf2 players are not in the usa, but scattered around the world.
And don't forget the 5$ fee for a moneypak. Who would buy a moneypak to trade only 1 refined?

Now, did you really use bitcoins? I sold games, refs and keys for btcs [ rep here: http://tf2-trader.com/index.php?topic=10814.15 and here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=55775.0;all ] and there is full satisfaction on both sides. Most of them make their bitcoins themselves with their video card, some use mtgox and intersango to buy them.
My smallest selling was 1 refined for 0.153 BTCs. 0 fees on both sides. How much would it cost in fees with paypal and moneypak?

OmegaZero_Alpha
A buyer just have to buy from a good rep seller, or use a very trusted / official middleman. After all, who gets scammed by chargebacks are sellers not buyers. Even when using a middleman with paypal, the buyer can still chargeback and make a loss on the middleman account.

[eg0tism]

some fucking cunt from czech republic filed a chargeback against me of $148 (4 buds, 2 bills).
what to do...

[OmegaZero_Alpha]

Just my thoughts from a business and marketing standpoint, forgive the text-wall:

I agree that we need something better than paypal for TF2 items. With paypal you have no protection under the law, whether you be a buyer or a seller. In fact when you sign up for a paypal account the terms of service actively waive your right to the federal consumer protection that is in place on credit cards, bank accounts, and debit.

That being said bitcoin would honestly solve the chargeback problem, but is a hard sell. The currency's relative value in relation to the USD rapidly fluctuates, and it can be daunting for new people to get into as well as giving no proof of identity (a fair amount of trust is usually the price of anonymity). If you wanted to counter-act the risk of the BTC market fluctuations you would have to quickly convert it to USD, which usually is done at a loss.

Because of the nature of steam trading, though, there is no REAL way of protecting both the buyer and the seller. Meaning that unless all parties involved are highly trusted and reputable then SOMEBODY is going to be in a logistical disadvantage which leaves them vulnerable to get scammed.

If steam was more committed they would just make steam wallet a universal system, where you could change funds back and forth from your wallet and paypal. This would give them the ability to regulate cash-to-virtual-item sales and give them the ability to make it much safer by implementing their own escrow system.

The drawback of that of course being that if they acknowledged that their in-game items were worth real word money, then their crate-and-key system would constitute an illegal lottery/gambling system and they would be at risk legally (as well as a lot of other legal issues with trading virtual goods for cash).

So in reality there is no straight-forward move to be made by anybody here. Everything plausible has a lot of drabacks, the only thing we can really do on our end is try and increase the security through some sort of user verification that ties their real name (confidentially, mind you) to the account and requires some sort authentication proving their personal information. The lack of pseudo-anonymity would deter a lot of people.

[Dando_Real_ITA]

I know the problems you point on bitcoins:

The fluctuation is damped down during last months, and if a seller choose a stable value for bitcoins - not tied to daily trade - it helps customers. For example, I had for 1 month and half a single key @ 0.4 btc. Then, 1 week ago, with btcs stabilized increased value [ the 30-day weighted value as showed in http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currencies/ ] at around 5$, I cut single key price to 0.36 btc and bulks to 0.3375 BTC @ 100 and 0.315 BTC @ 200.
Now, if btc value starts to drop, I won't change instantly price. Instead, I'll wait for the 30-day to touch 4.5$. This needs time, and meanwhile btcs can rise back to 5$: by letting the price be stable on my side, I mask to my customers the fluctuation, because they keeped buying @ 0.36 btc even during the drop, and in the end I didn't lose anything, because the value is back as expected.
I have to point that I don't cash them out until I have a real need, so until then the btcs are in my wallet and that's why I can afford to mask their fluctuations.
The risk is if I have to cash out after the drop [ not happened until now ], but I don't care, because the savings btcs give me in terms of 0 risks, 0 fees makes it worth.

Joining bitcoins is probably the hardest part. If you don't have a good ATI video card to make them, you have to buy them.
Most exchanges use bank accounts, which are very cheap in SEPA countries ( 1 - 1.50 $ flat fee to deposit and withdraw ) but I think costly in other places.
Mtgox uses dwolla, but I don't know how it works
Some use Linden Dollars as a means to buy bitcoins with paypal, as in virwox.
Then there is the otc maket, where you can buy bitcoins via moneypak, amazon codes and so on.
All this is not as simple as a paypal transfer.
However, if more people start using it in the tf2 market, it would be easier for everyone to get btcs by selling all kind of tf2 items, even weapons: due to 0 fees, trading 1 weapon for 0.009 btcs is not a problem. The transfer itself is very simple - just write your address - and the broadcast reach the client in < 1 min.
And I save a lot of time and headaches by not needing to check anything about the bitcoin buyers trust, I just ask them to go first and that's all.

For proof of identity, I'm not sure what you mean. You can still use rep threads, steam rep and all that's already used with paypal, and if really needed, you can also use a GPG identity over bitcoin otc - only I have my private key and only I can auth there with my nickname & public key.

For the fluctuations, other than that I said before, if you want to quickly convert, you just have to:
1) place a sell order before you even get the bitcoins
2) tell the buyer the mtgox adress
When the btcs are sent, they are sold, at no loss: it's just a normal trade.
Details here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=55921.0

For the steam part, I would say that this would not solve the problem: we see this with games today.
Let's say that you can view a 5$ tradable game as a 5$ wallet that can go around.
The game for item trade is escrowed by steam trading.
But, what happens when the original buyer of the game from the store place a chargeback on paypal? steam removes the game. The seller of the tf2 item, loses both the item and the game -> he gets scammed.
And the funny thing is, that the game can be traded many times before the chargeback of the original buyer: the last one, who gets scammed, doesn't even know if the scammer is the one who traded with him, or the one who gave the game to the one who traded with him, and so on... So he can't even report a scammer.

Now, if the wallet becomes tradeable, steam would simply remove the funds from the seller account. If there are no funds on the account, it could force to lock the account until the balance is 0. The seller loses both wallet and the item -> he gets scammed the same.

Because game chargebacks/scams already happens, wallet chargebacks/scams will happen too.

For the last part, i'm not sure on the needing of all this security, but you can achieve something via GPG, for example:
A gives public key to B
A generates a message and encrypts it with B's public key
A asks B a postal address where to send the encypted message
B needs to give real address to get his hands on the message, decrypt it and tell A the original message.
Now A knows B's claimed identity is real
B can do the same to know A's postal address.
By needing a physical access to the message, it can achieve what you said. You can add other constraints, like requesting a job's address, or tie the message to a bank transfer. That's what I can think right now that forces a real name involved - no online method can really be trusted, so offline is the only way.