[doubleUTF]

Hi, this is DoubleUTF. I'm a regular on the sourceop arena server. I just broke 10,000 points on the server rankings, so I figured it's about time to come and do something instead of just thinking about it.

I noticed that Orci posted a thread a while back about sitting out and alltalk. I'd like to add to his ideas and also suggest some new ones.

About sitting out: I think that making the server 12v12 is the best solution, and it solves the problem completely.

However, there's an alternate solution that I wouldnt mind (though I really have no idea this would be implemented instead of 12v12, this is more of an idea than a real solution)

If, say, the amount of people on the server is more than 8v8, would it be possible to allow an odd number on players on the team? Any regular can confirm this: When arena matches get big, it really comes down to the few star players on each team. Having an extra player there is unlikely to make a difference. This would also enable something that I really want to do: the ability to spectate. As of now, you can only spectate when you are sitting out, but there are times when I would like to manually choose to spectate.

Alltalk: I support Orci completely. I thought i'd have something to add, but i like his idea and theres no way I could make it better.

Watchtower: When I was playing today i saw a vote being called to eliminate watchtower from the rotation. I assume this was an admin's doing, or it was automated. Anyway, almost every one of the top 20-30ish regulars and i (i think i am ranked 17 right now?) agree that watchtower is a terrible, terrible arena map. For those that dont play arena regularly, it might seem like a decent map or you might even scoff at me bringing up this issue, but watchtower is truly a terrible map. I could go into detail if someone wants me to, but the point is the group of people who contribute the most hours to the sourceop server almost unanimously agree that watchtower should be removed. Hell, i plan my gameplay around watchtower: When watchtower comes up in the rotation, it's time to take a break for 30 minutes until that hellhole of a map is over.

Also, I dont really have a solution for this problem, but....votekick is useless. Granted, 90% of the time we just have fun with good decent people, but there are mic spammers and text chat spammers that just come back the second they are votekicked, or they initiate the votekick the moment it is cooled down, leaving us unable to votekick for however long the cooldown period is. IMO there isn't much to be done about this besides having admins be there more on the server. (or at all, loll)

Those are all of my suggestions. Whether or not they are taken into consideration, sourceop will continue to be THE server to play arena on.

haha time to make a massive post even bigger. I dont know if sourceop does tournaments (although i noticed some tournament threads in the forums), but I would really enjoy an arena tournament. All we would win is recognition, but i enjoy playing with the regulars so much that playing arena at all is good enough. I thought of this idea because the Slaughterhouse guys just started hosting their first monthly 4v4 arena tournament. I found out about theirs because I was playing in their server one day when their admin announced it. The cash prize of the tournament certainly appealed to me, but what was really awesome was the idea of the tournament itself. I have never seen an arena tournament before (which is pretty justified, since most people think it's not as legitimate a game mode...which is pretty true). But I think it can be both competitive and fun enough to be in a tournament format. I've already told many of the regulars to make their own teams for next month's tournament, but it'd be a lot more enjoyable to play with an organization i am already familiar with. I understand if there isnt anybody with enough spare time to set up and organize a tournament, but I just wanted to say that there would be no shortage of interested players. (I would say 50-60 players easily)

[Adder]

I can already tell you the answer is going to be no, watchtower isn't going to be removed simply because it's all the stock maps.

If he gives into your demands, then people will pester him to no end about Junction/2fort/Egypt/Turbine on the Valve Maps #1 server.

And Watchtower is a great map.

[Drunken F00l]

Thanks for the feedback. 12v12 is something I plan to do. The no sitouts over 8v8 thing is a good idea; I'll see if I can work that in.

Remind me of Orci's alltalk idea? Is this the alltalk for dead people thing? If so, that's not a terrible idea, but I'm afraid some people might want to discuss strategy or something while dead or get the wrong impression and thing alltalk is always on.

Watchtower stays. How about map veto votes instead? You never really explained why it's bad, but said you would go into detail if we wanted you to, so let's hear it.

I have some plans to make votekick better including making it temp ban for a couple minutes and making it so that more people have to want one before the vote shows up on screen.

[doubleUTF]

Okay, here's why I think watchtower is bad.

1) Snipers just have too much freedom on this map. On any other arena map, there are ways to deal with snipers and on certain arena maps, they get shut down very easily. However, here's why I think snipers are way overpowered on this map: Within seconds of the gate opening, a sniper can snipe into the enemy spawn. No class besides a scout can run to the middle without being exposed to sniper fire (and this is while running on a straight pipe...easy headshots anyone?) Needless to say, anybody who goes through the left or right of the map could be sniped too. When I sometimes play it with the regulars (just cause i have nothing better to do), if we see a sniper dot (sometimes more than one) covering the left or right, we tell everyone to avoid going that way and have to change our strategy completely. Additionally, standing on the point makes you vulnerable to sniper fire...it's ridiculous that you have to be crouching down to avoid being headshot (because, depending on your class, your head perfectly peeks out the top) Of course, in other arena maps, snipers can cover the cap point easily too. But it is rare that in a map where the cap point has 4 entrances, what people fear most are snipers sniping from a very long, very safe distance.

However, this isn't the real problem. The real problem is that more than any other map, watchtower is a map of counters. What do i mean?

Look at the various strategies:

1) flood the map with snipers, cover all positions
2) Rush the point with a large group, hold it until they can cap
3) Demo/rocket jump to the top, camp the point, sticky the point and make it difficult to attack

If anybody decides to execute these strategies, the other team can only hope to win if they counter them. If the enemy has several good snipers, the best chance at victory for the other team is to have enough snipers to force the enemy snipers to prioritize, making it a sniper vs sniper battle while the rest of the classes fight it out.

If a team say, gets two or three medic pairs and an engi pair and rush the middle (and encounter little opposition), they pretty much have the game in the bag. If i see a team doing this, I have to tell my team to prepare to rush the point next round, because that kind of defense is nearly impossible to push through, seeing as how closed the cap point is. (besides to snipers)

I've seen occasions where a pair of demos would sticky jump above, and put stickies all over the cap point, defeating a team with much larger numbers. The only way that a team can hope to beat people camping on the roof is to hopefully have a demo/soldier also able to jump up. A sniper can help, but no matter where you are sniping from, you can only cover about half the roof.

So you see, in my opinion, the problem with watchtower is that it forces teams to change their lineup to win, and that certain classes on watchtower are way more used/needed than they should be. One might say that this is fair and should be expected from arena gameplay, but consider this:

Let's say there are 20 people in the server. It's a 10v10. On every single arena map, I would say that a lineup of 1 soldier, 1 demo, 1 heavy, two medics, two scouts, spy, sniper, engi would be a very solid lineup. It requires little modification. However, on watchtower, i would scoff at that lineup. An engi is useless if you dont take the point early; even then, a lack of metal means that it will take upwards of a minute to get anything real situated there. A heavy, if lucky enough to make it to the middle (easily sniped anywhere else), needs teammates to hold the point with him. If our sniper gets sniped in the first couple seconds, the team will effectively be pinned down on their side, unless everyone charges from the same area (and just ignores the losses) In addition, from my experience, scouts are not nearly as useful on watchtower as you'd think. Scouts cannot easily rush enemy spawn to attack snipers; they have to traverse a long way, dodging sniper fire all the while. If there is a single soldier that stays behind to protect the snipers, scouts are effectively shut down.

I could go on, but the point is that watchtower doesn't promote diversity. I could play the same class for every other arena map, but when watchtower comes up in the rotation, I have to consider changing it to something that will be good in watchtower. When the cap point opens, if you happen to be far away (you were sniping in spawn, for example), it's possible you can't make it to the point in time. Is this possible with any other arena map? It takes such a long time to get to the point that if people aren't close to the point, it's hard to organize and make a coordinated charge into the point. I realize that this argument is perhaps the answer to the "snipers can snipe into the point easily and make it hard for people to cap" argument i brought up earlier, but both sides of this argument are problems that shouldn't exist.

another problem is that watchtower is glitchy: The water cooler in the point, if knocked over, can make people freeze for several seconds if they accidently step over it. Thus a strategy is to knock the water cooler into one of the stairs, making it difficult for anyone to run up without knocking it aside first. People can alsosticky jump out of the map. I dont know if this is because watchtower doesn't have a skybox, or because there are holes in the skybox, but i've seen it done before. Admittedly, i'm not sure that you can fire anything back into the normal gameplay area (the one time that i observed a demo doing that, his stickies would get stuck under the map), but he definately removes himself from gameplay. (not that i care that people can do this, just wanted to point out another glitch from watchtower). A third glitch i've noticed is that if you fall down into the rocks below the straight pipe, you can become stuck in the rocks. This doesn't happen often, but if you just happen to accidently walk off, you should prepare to be stuck for the rest of the round.

Keep in mind that most of this is just my opinion...if you think that some of the arguments I said are unjustified or should be expected from arena gameplay, i'm fine with that. I just wanted to tell drunken and anyone that thinks watchtower is a good map why almost every single one of the regulars (who put a ton of hours into the server) think that watchtower is flawed.

Drunken, map veto votes are perfect, if you dont want to remove watchtower from the rotation. However, I suspect that watchtower will be vetoed out so often that it might as well not be in the rotation.

Your votekick improvement is just what we need. Nothing to add there.

[Adder]

Stop the presses, you're saying you have react and change your strategy according to the map and what the enemy team is doing, therefore the map is bad?

Mind=blown.

[doubleUTF]

lol adder, your reply is exactly what I expected some people would say. Like i said, most of this is just my opinion...I already know that some people think that it's not a problem. How exactly does your post contribute to this thread?

[Agua]

It's my impression (and I could be wrong) that Adder simply meant to imply that developing cross-class skills is a key way to becoming a better player overall, and by focusing on one class, you limit your own experience.

Also, be sure to lurk a little more and get a taste of the personalities around here...it will go a long way into knowing who, how, and why people will respond to this message.

If you ever play on the custom map or the valve map servers, you will find that many of the regs change class to fit the situation. Some are career classes and obviously we have our strengths and favored classes, but I don't know if the arguments you provide hold water in a game that was created to be team/strategy-based. Granted, Arena play throws a different spin on things, but the basis of TF2 is supposed to teamwork and strategy; and strategy involves adaptation.

Let me offer this: If you want to be a good pryo, play spy. Learn how a spy works and then apply that to your pyro game...spies will then hate you because you look/move how they do. If you want to be a good heavy, also play sniper. Learn where good and bad sniping spots are, and as a heavy avoid being in those spots. This application will work for about any class.

Sounds to me like you need a good spy and those snipers would cease to be a problem.

And don't forget that just because the map isn't your cup o' tea and crumpets, doesn't mean it's a bad map [enter every single 2fort debate ever, from all time, and all dimensions]. Welcome to the forums.

Read some Sun Tzu.

[doubleUTF]

You have some good points, Aqua. You are right that being able to play several classes is an important skill.

However, it sounds to me you don't play arena a lot or at all, which is understandable. I also understand why you would suggest a spy to take care of the snipers. However, this doesnt work and i'll tell you why. The most prominent sniper positions are actaully from the spawn, not from the high ledge as you would think. A spy has to traverse about HALF of the map CLOAKED. He would need to have full cloak to even have a chance of getting close to the snipers. This alone makes it difficult for spies to get snipers. Also, a single soldier or demo that stays behind renders spies useless. I am a pretty decent spy, and trust me when i say that I dont even bother going for snipers at spawn unless they are totally alone and incompetent.

And it's not that the map isnt my cup of tea, because I can do well on it and i know how to. However, I just hate that when playing on watchtower, most teams will unconsciously drift towards a more sniper-orientated lineup. This results in lots of scouts, lots of snipers, and few engis and pyros. You are right that tf2 requires teamwork and strategy. I've already offered examples of how you can use teamwork to win in watchtower. But my problem with watchtower is simply that there is a lot less freedom to choose your class. Each of the valve-created arena maps are different in some way; but they are all the same in that every class can be used effectively, and that there isn't really a stronger or more preferred class for any of the maps. Obviously, watchtower is the exception.

To summarize: We shouldn't have to have snipers on our side to deal with snipers on the enemy side. If a team doesn't have snipers and the other team has several, they are nigh untouchable.

This is just my opinion, but I think that Valve chose to sponsor Watchtower not because it was balanced, but because it was original, had great visuals, and presented a new idea. (a map where you often have to fight vertically)

Also: a heavy cannot avoid being sniped in watchtower. That is the truth. If you aren't hit at all before making it to the point, you are either lucky or the enemy snipers are preoccupied. Movement in watchtower is not nearly as open as you would imagine. It's more like moving down corridors than an actual open environment.

[whitefox]

this thread gets my vote for longest words by multiple people in one thread

also i dont care about all talk, i actually don't like it, but the 12v12 would be awsome, i hate waiting out

[orcimrebu]

I was planning on writing an essay tonight for class, but I just copied Double's thread instead. :o

Like my other thread I wrote a month or two back, I agree with Double about 12v12 and AllTalk for either 1) Dead people, 2) At the end of matches, or 3) both of the previous two options.

In all honesty, not much strategy building gets played at the end of matches or during death. Usually it's just talking about how funny a death was, how epic an ending was, or something similar, and it would be great to talk to those people than maybe you killed at the same time as you died. I find sometimes when playing with my friends (a lot of whom I met on SourceOP Arena server), that I am not on their teams for hours (yes even with team scramble it happens), and talking smack to them during death or at the end of matches would be great.

And if teams DO want to do some strategy building? There's time seconds at the beginning of every match, enough time to change classes 4-5 times if you keep changing your mind! I really don;t think it's an issue.