Prop 8 in Cali

[Versed]

Zeit I can see after reading through your post that you've mistook what I said again. I also see that any further discussion of the matter is only going to lead to more mindless discussion of the topic.

To clarify what I said (since the internet is so hard to decipher):

It's been my experience that when topics about homosexuality spur up there is a lot of bashing involved. While it seemed that most everyone else kept their feelings to themselves on this topic or at least kept it civil you and Nobody felt the need to be immature, disrespectful and rude to Christians.

I felt I was mature, respectful and civil to you about your thoughts and feelings regardless of what I might think. I don't feel either of you extended me the same courtesy and that is what I found sad.

If you want to continue to fill this thread with your opinions of Christians and Christianity then by all means go ahead. However, I will no longer comment on the subject or any of your posts directed at Christians since you can't have a discussion without being rude.

[insomniaprincess]

Let me just pipe in here and add my opinions (since I typically avoid those and stick with facts only).

There are many things I could say but I just want to focus for a minute on the discussion between Zeit and Versed.

Zeit, while many of us can understand and agree with some of the things you have said, you have missed the point that I believe Versed was trying to make.

He wasn't talking about "right-wing religious zealots in this country", he was talking about people on the SourceOP forums only. Religious or not, there are many people in video games who are against homosexuality. There are "gay-bashers" and those who make gay jokes and those who just use the term "gay" in a derogatory manner (i.e. "Yo, this map is really gay man.") and some homosexual people find this offensive. I think all of us know there is a lot of "gay hate" amongst the gaming community yet everyone here was respectful and mature towards those who even came forward as being gay or as having felt homosexual tendencies in the past )whether or not they still act on those feelings today.

Versed was pointing out that no one came to "flame" this thread with gay-bashing comments, derogatory posts or insults to homosexual people. The topics remained mostly mature and respectful but the first moment the topic strayed to religion, all that slipped away.

People have been fighting over religion since the beginning of time and I don't foresee that ending any time soon. That was not the topic here nor was it part of Versed's argument.

What you have posted does seem like an attack towards Versed, quite honestly. For example, where you quote him on saying "to clear up a misunderstanding" you go on to explain your views on religion.

Versed never questioned your views on religion in any of his posts and there was no misunderstanding between you and him regarding anything in this thread. His post was aimed towards another poster that said perhaps God is gay since we were made in His image. Versed said he doesn't believe this to be true because his understanding of God is that he has no sexual orientation because he is not a being of the flesh and that sex was created by God for humans.

Each of these posters had their opinions on their personal interpretations of God. None of that really had anything to do with you and Versed wasn't even talking to you and yet you come back with a long, angry post directed at him.

You quote his post that wasn't even directed at you and you use it as a way to vent your anger and frustration at Christianity. You have every right to share those thoughts and opinions and if doing so on this forum, this is certainly a great thread to do so.

However, I feel it would have been much better suited as a post of it's own without quoting Versed and directing your bitterness and anger towards him when he didn't do or say anything to you.

Has Versed ever persecuted you for being gay?
Has Versed ever held you back in life due to his religious beliefs?
Has Versed ever attacked you, insulted you or abused you in any way?

This isn't about respect for Christians, rights for homosexuals or determining the truth behind creation- this is about general respect for other gamers, members of SourceOP who enjoy the same game on the same servers as you.

If you're going to be like that about it, you may as well start pointing fingers at all the white people on this thread because long ago, white people used to keep blacks as slaves and there are some racist white people out there who still believe blacks are less than whites.

While we're at it, some of my ancestors were Irish. Maybe I should complain about how the Irish were persecuted when they first came to this country by the Natives. Even worse, the rest of my family were Native Americans. "All you white people stole my land! OMG!"

It's irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Versed never said that Christians haven't persecuted homosexuals. He said that no one was gay-bashing in this thread not in all history of the universe.

In a way, you did the same thing to Omega. You quoted his comment and twisted it to meet your own interpretation.

Omega said that he is Christian and that he doesn't have a problem with homosexuals but that, as he has expressed before, he believes people have a choice of whether or not to live their lives as homosexuals.

Maybe you believe that people do not have a choice and that you're either gay or not gay- no choice involved. You're both entitled to your own opinions. However, you twisted Omega's words. You made this an attack on you when it clearly wasn't.

I don't believe Omega is the type to be obscure when he's attacking you. If he was against everything you believe in, I'm quite certain he would have said exactly that. He did not, in fact, say that but you interpreted it that way.

If you are in fact, a reasonable guy as you said, then I would expect you to stop, take a deep breath and look at the whole picture before posting. Things get misunderstood enough when emotions are involved without someone taking another's words and twisting them around.

This is too expansive of a topic to cover in just a couple of forum posts but it will help people understand you better and respect your opinions more if you keep your posts centered and focused. Each of us can only be accountable for what we personally have done or said to you- not for what "our kind" or people like us may have done to you. To judge everyone that way is just as bad as the people who persecute homosexuals.

[Zeitgeist]

none of my comments or posts are to be taken that i believe sourceop or the sourceop forums are in any way a microcosm of the world i type about. sourceop is a very small group, and i believe a lot of us have a lot more in common with how we think then we realize at first. the vast majority of us are sensible, rational beings who are here to game and not to hate on anyone, gay atheist christian straight muslim or otherwise. but this thread (to me at the very least) is not about that. it's about the larger world, where the church is a very real threat to the coexistence of straight and gay human beings.

ip, you and i regularly border on a problem with discussing the very large and the very societal. we (and the larger, collective we) use blanket statements to describe the ethos, intentions, or actions of others, simply because it is easier to do so and more accurate to do so, then simply say that everything we talk about is conditional based upon the singular persons involved and the circumstances.

of course it is, but no one talks like that.

im sure versed is a nice guy. im even sure omega has friends, IRL. i know what it sounded like. as i mentioned at the VERY TOP of my last post, i don't know enough about either of those people to make statements about what they believe, only about what they are SAYING.

so yeah, i lumped christians into two large categories. very few people are actually that black and white (as you know.) stereotype? you betcha. stereotypes are absolutely necessary to humans, in order to sort the huge amount of data our brains collect. the only problem with stereotypes is if you allow them to not only be the base of your foundation of understanding with different people, but be the entire unmovable structure.


no one NEEDED to come in this thread and bash gays, is what im saying. no one even needed to be on sourceop who WASNT gay. even if EVERYONE i talked to on the internet was gay - it wouldn't excuse the fact that organized religion has declared war on homosexuals, and that those who follow christian morale and ideals even in a non-organized fashion give them more and more power, and help push their agenda to the farthest reaches of the globe.

i am completely against the idea of god. if you believe in god, i do not trust your morale compass. i would not count on you, if my life was in peril. i don't believe you should be allowed to vote, or teach in any educational settings, or participate in civil service. you logic is FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED, if you believe in ANY god.



theres an aweful lot of typing in this thread isnt there?

[insomniaprincess]

ip, you and i regularly border on a problem with discussing the very large and the very societal..

Not regularly; two times. This thread and the one on sticky bombs. Also, I don't have a problem with discussing the large or societal nor do I have a problem with you, your comments or opinions. I enjoy the conversation. I just like people to be clear and concise with what they mean and to keep their facts straight (which you did in this post but didn't so much in your last post).

we (and the larger, collective we) use blanket statements to describe the ethos, intentions, or actions of others, simply because it is easier to do so and more accurate to do so,

I do not find it easier nor more accurate to do this. You and the collective majority of the forums may do so but I choose to refrain from generalizations, sterotypes and blanket statements.

then simply say that everything we talk about is conditional based upon the singular persons involved and the circumstances.

Everything I talked about is conditional based upon the singular persons involved and the circumstances.

I'd also like to point out that I wasn't defending Versed nor was I arguing with you, Zeit. To this point, I have not revealed my personal feelings on homosexuality, religion or whether or not Spiderman is cooler than Superman.

I just said that I think you should have shared your feelings and views on religion without pointing fingers at someone who never gave you reason to do so.

theres an aweful lot of typing in this thread isnt there?

This is true.

[insomniaprincess]

it wouldn't excuse the fact that organized religion has declared war on homosexuals,

a.)Where is your proof of this fact?
b.)"organized religion" does not encompass all Christians or even all who believe in God- this is another blanket statement

and that those who follow christian morale and ideals even in a non-organized fashion give them more and more power, and help push their agenda to the farthest reaches of the globe.

I have friends and family members who call themselves "Christian" and "homosexual". Would you say that they are at war with homosexuals or that they are helping to "push the agenda"?

What specific "Christian morale and ideals" are you referring to? Have you studied Christianity and its many denominations and the beliefs and ideals held within each of those denominations?

[insomniaprincess]

i am completely against the idea of god. if you believe in god, i do not trust your morale compass. i would not count on you, if my life was in peril. i don't believe you should be allowed to vote, or teach in any educational settings, or participate in civil service. you logic is FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED, if you believe in ANY god.

-according to the latest NEWSWEEK poll. Nine in 10 (91 percent) of American adults say they believe in God and almost as many (87 percent) say they identify with a specific religion. Christians far outnumber members of any other faith in the country, with 82 percent of the poll ’s respondents identifying themselves as such.- (http://www.newsweek.com/ and MSNBS.MSN.com)

So 91% of American should not be allowed to vote, to teach or to participate in civil service, according to you?

Here are some famous scientists who also believed in God. According to your opinions, their logic is fundamentally flawed and they should not be allowed the same basic rights which are given to all citizens of America today.


1. Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)

2. Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627)

3. Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)

4. Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

5. Rene Descartes (1596-1650)

6. Isaac Newton (1642-1727)

7. Robert Boyle (1791-1867)

8. Michael Faraday (1791-1867)

9. Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)

10. William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)

11. Max Planck (1858-1947)

12. Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

I should also add that EVERY ONE of these scientists while still believing in God, challenged organized religions, the beliefs taught to them from childhood and the stereotypes associated with those particular religious beliefs.

They each saw that religion- a man made institution- was flawed because man is flawed. However, they still believed in God.

Albert Einstein himself said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

[Zeitgeist]

I do not find it easier nor more accurate to do this. You and the collective majority of the forums may do so but I choose to refrain from generalizations, sterotypes and blanket statements.

....

Everything I talked about is conditional based upon the singular persons involved and the circumstances.

while i respect the fact you think you don't, i truly believe that stereotypes are part of the human condition, a coping mechanism, that you can shed no more then i can.

I'd also like to point out that I wasn't defending Versed nor was I arguing with you, Zeit. To this point, I have not revealed my personal feelings on homosexuality, religion or whether or not Spiderman is cooler than Superman.

I just said that I think you should have shared your feelings and views on religion without pointing fingers at someone who never gave you reason to do so.

thats very true. and you have every right to tell or not to tell. btw, spiderman.

it wouldn't excuse the fact that organized religion has declared war on homosexuals,

a.)Where is your proof of this fact?
b.)"organized religion" does not encompass all Christians or even all who believe in God- this is another blanket statement

a. because of the nature of christianity (it being mostly ambiguous and without specific modern day leadership - with the exception of two specific examples, the catholics and lds, who have declared their obvious distaste for us - so far as to say we are not eligible for basic human rights) and because the modern day nature of war is often cloak and dagger, guerrilla warfare, legislative warfare, rights warfare, ect... i really can't point you to a piece of text saying "we declare war!" but there is certainly enough unpleasantness that i don't think im being an out-there-wacko to say that the larger organized religions of the world have declared war on homosexuals.

b. i mean the unorganized and non-catholic/other large denomination christians and other monotheists who are passive towards some of the more aggressive churchs' stance are enabling them to continue being aggressive and dominant. it's the whole "if you didnt stop your friend from murdering a hobo in front of you, you're just as guilty," kind of thing. not that homos are hobos.

I have friends and family members who call themselves "Christian" and "homosexual". Would you say that they are at war with homosexuals or that they are helping to "push the agenda"?

gay christians are very much like black confederates. they certainly existed, and they were certainly not popular among their own. it is a direct conflict of interest, and these people are compromising a part of themselves.

i think they undermine everything gay rights has been pushing for globally over the last few decades. and i mean that to you too bookie! (my partner)

[Zeitgeist]

-according to the latest NEWSWEEK poll. Nine in 10 (91 percent) of American adults say they believe in God and almost as many (87 percent) say they identify with a specific religion. Christians far outnumber members of any other faith in the country, with 82 percent of the poll ’s respondents identifying themselves as such.- (http://www.newsweek.com/ and MSNBS.MSN.com)

So 91% of American should not be allowed to vote, to teach or to participate in civil service, according to you?

correct! i think i have previously mentioned my beliefs on democracy and my arguments against it, ill pull them up later if you are curious.

Here are some famous scientists who also believed in God. According to your opinions, their logic is fundamentally flawed and they should not be allowed the same basic rights which are given to all citizens of America today.


<truncated>


I should also add that EVERY ONE of these scientists while still believing in God, challenged organized religions, the beliefs taught to them from childhood and the stereotypes associated with those particular religious beliefs.

They each saw that religion- a man made institution- was flawed because man is flawed. However, they still believed in God.

Albert Einstein himself said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

again, as i've said, these people tend to fall into that second grouping of christians. they are still hurting the human race by not actively fighting the organization of corpro-churches, but are a necessary transitional step in shedding christian morality. like capitalism is a transitional step from feudalism to socialism, which in itself is a transitional step to communism.

[insomniaprincess]

correct! i think i have previously mentioned my beliefs on democracy and my arguments against it, ill pull them up later if you are curious.

Sure, I'd like to hear it. I don't recall reading that before.

again, as i've said, these people tend to fall into that second grouping of christians. they are still hurting the human race by not actively fighting the organization of corpro-churches, but are a necessary transitional step in shedding christian morality. like capitalism is a transitional step from feudalism to socialism, which in itself is a transitional step to communism.

You don't feel that belief or disbelief in God is a personal choice?

How is one person's believing in God hurting the human race? (This isn't a facetious question but a literal one.)

Also, does that second grouping of Christians, as you call them, still fall under your opinion as people whom you do not trust and who should not have rights such as voting, etc.?

Are their lives and the things they accomplished in their lives somehow less valuable to society and the human race because they happened to believe in God?

[avy]

Anyone here a practicing Jedi like myself?