[paw]

Well complete randomization wouldn't be ideal. When my clan mate is on, I want to be on his team because we have fun working together.

I just think
1) people are stacking teams because it boosts their points
2) if there is a point motivation for evening the teams, then players would hit 'tab' after joining the server to join the team that result in the best balance on the server rather than join the team with all the best players on it.

[Kou]

Going to agree with Ret that it wouldn't fix team stacking and I don't believe its personal stats related.

How many times have you been on a team where your constantly getting flanked because half your team seems to be too busy trying to put sprays on the wall and not building up D? Or maybe you have 6 pyros and the only person willing to go medic was your demo but now you can't destroy the 2 sentries guarding the control point?

People want to play with the team that has competent players. How many of us who play on the servers on a regular basis can honestly say they don't know 5 or 6 players who they want to be on their team, simply because they will perform at the class they play?

[Half-Duplex]

I think I can see Ret's point of view on this, and I'm going to have to side with him.

I feel that if one team is obviously better than the other - then its tough luck on the team that can't work together. When people say the teams are "stacked" they are usually referring to skill of the players on the opposing team and not numbers. When in reality, its not entirely based on the skill-set of any one individual, but rather the combined skill-set of all the players on the team. Lets face it.....16 vs 16 is 16 vs 16. And it can't get any more balanced than that. But, 16 players working together vs 16 players working independently, well then who's fault is that?

The losing team needs to get better at working as whole. No sense in making the blow softer on the losing side because they lack teamwork and communication.

If they really cared about winning - get a microphone, develop friendships, and take the time to formulate strategies on how to dominate. Switching 1 or 2 good players isn't going to do anything because the game is based on teamwork, not how much any one person owns. You can't increase the skill of a team if they aren't willing to work as a team.

How many times have you heard me say, "This team doesn't communicate for shit". No losing team loses to one player - they lose to the entire team.

[TB]

No losing team loses to one player - they lose to the entire team.

Yea, an entire team of stacked players. It happens a lot actually. I have been on the stacked team before. As with most people, they want to play with friends, and so do I. I usually join with my fellow clan mates but, if sometimes if its just too damn stacked, then I'll go to the other team. Its no fun getting rolled over round after round.

It is very satisfying switching from the stacked team to the losing team, and then rally them to a win. I'll try to do it more myself if I see it happening.

I'm not sure how you can solve the problem, other than people just trying to even up the teams by their own choice so everyone can have a fun time playing.

[Asai]

There is no answer to team stacking as you call it, there are some folks on this server that i wait till they pick a team and i join the other. I do this because i do not want to listen to some asshole go off on someone for the duration of the map. This has nothing to do with thier skill level at game play just thier skill level at interaction with other people, they would rather yell, criticize and demean then instruct, this is just a game and there is no place for that kind of behavior. My point is that there may be many folks who feel the same way and accordingly the teams become "stacked". I will not mention any names so in replies to this post do not ask those folks know who they are. The other thing to consider is that the players may have many friends that play on sourceop and if given the opportunity to shoot with them rather than against they will invaribly take the former its just human nature.
So what do we do to solve this problem? I suggest that if you find yourself on a team where some folks are struggling to figure out how to fit into the team, INSTRUCT rather than criticize, most folks will appreciate it and you might find that when given an idea of how to assist the team the game might become more enjoyable for you and them.

just a thought
Asai

[Half-Duplex]

I'm not sure how you can solve the problem, other than people just trying to even up the teams by their own choice so everyone can have a fun time playing.

But its not like all the good players play together to where you have 16 good people on the same team against 16 sucky players. There have been many rounds where I've seen good players on the non-stacked team, and still get owned.

The point I'm trying to make is that these "good" players are good because they know how to work together. This isn't like Counter-Strike where you can be the last man standing and still dominate like no other. Thats because in CS, you don't have classes...everyone is equally powered with the options of all the same guns. The nature of TF2 is designed so that each class has its strong points, but depend on other classes for help in areas in which they lack.

The thing is, you have these players who are so quick to say, "the other team is stacked" when a simple adjustment in the game plan can go a long way. Ex: Changing classes - don't have 5 people be a scout with no medic. 2 Spies, 3 snipers, 3 engies that don't help each other build, 2 soldiers and maybe 1 heavy (if you're lucky).

If you have one "good" player switch over, it won't prove to be of much help. He'll need to have someone else who can communicate just as well because more than likely, the losing team won't have anyone competent enough (or else they probably won't be getting owned so badly). That has happened to me multiple of times where I go less fortunate team and no one talks or tries. That is most frustrating.

I'm sorry, but if I'm going to switch over to the other side to "even" out the teams, I know I won't be enough to take on the entire opposition

I don't think the problem can be solved, ultimately - even if DF, or any admin intervened. You have to leave it up to the players to make that decision to switch. The most any one player can do is, as you said, even up the teams by their own choice.

[Kaylee]

I know stacked teams aren't fun but tbh I'd rather play with my friends whether it puts me on a stacked team or against a stacked team.

[nerverot]

Ha ha. This conversations blossomed into a stacking conversation.

I think the original suggestion of some kind of (moderate) point modifier, if it were even possible is interesting.

As far as stacking goes I think it's really a non-issue.

The intelligent point-spread seems like more of a fine tuning of the point system and nothing more.

If you haven't read the original post:

HLStats calculates the average skill per team (you can see it on the front page of stats.sourceop.com). Right now:
Red: 9294
Blu: 15534

Divide the lesser average by the greater average. Result will be between 0 and 1. In this case it is 59.8%. On average, team Red has 59.8% as much hlstats "skill" as team Blu.

This is our modifier. Blu team now will receive 59.8% HLstats points.

Tada, all the sudden all the good players won't join the same team, AND high skill players will have motivation to switch to losing team to turn the tides.

It's all about using hlstatx to calculate a per team skill level (based on combined player skill levels) and modifying points based on that.

Wouldn't do ton's, but there's something intrinsically fair about it.

[paw]

Duplex,

People who are new to the server and don't know anyone else aren't going to be very effective leaders.

If the regulars were split among the two teams, the those regulars could rally the rest of their teammates to work together.

When Riposte and I play, usually it is [YDR] on one team and for example, [INC] on the other. We tell people when we are ubering, when to follow us in, when sentries are down and the team needs to make a push for the point, etc.

New players to the server aren't as vocal. We need to distribute the regulars amongst the teams. That is all.

[Half-Duplex]

Paw,

This isn't like elementary school where we have to be shy the first day we step foot into the classroom.

Regardless if you're new or not. The game is still played the same way.

As for distributing the regulars, that happens naturally. Not 100% of the time, but it does happen more often than not.

Again, whos fault is it that the new people don't speak up? The regulars? Or the people won't don't speak?

I can't force someone to cooperate or work together as a team.

Earlier today I came on the server, red team was being dominated up and down the scorebored on dustbowl. I joined red - 8 engies on the team. I tried to explain why we didn't need that many engies...and why we were losing. Trying to "rally" up the team. You know what the argument was?

"The other team is stacked with "good" players"

I'm sorry, but 2 medics, and 2 demos can take out 8 sentry guns easily with an uber each. Heh, sad thing was, we only had 2 or 3 sentries built.

Its not a matter of the good vs the bad
Its a matter of the smart vs the stupid.