[Schwarz]

I have no competitive experience at all, but if I could choose 6 people to put up against an "h20" or other clan, the people I would choose, in my opinion, would work things out and stand a chance

no chance

[Hell-met]

unless it's me against joe






8O

[Agua]

If no one notices, then how do you know about them?

Call it carry over from real world management/organizational skills, but I'm always in the business of laying foundations for things to succeed. I've been around long enough to know how to make a team of people win and have had to do so in multiple outlets.

I don't think of the 6 best players being the top 6 hlstatsx players, and im not about to start naming people. But i suppose you could pick 6 people with a good bit of competitive experience and then maybe it would have a chance, but i think you know thats not what i meant.

I wasn't fishing for names, and I'm also not about to start naming my who's and why's. It's simply inappropriate for public conversation.

I am beginning to understand that it may sound like I'm trying to either 1) downplay competitive players, 2) or say that pubstars are the best. Neither of these are my contention. I also know that the way I see things in my head doesn't always come across in everything that I write. The struggle with learning the 6v6 dynamic would be a huge challenge and to learn it would take work. That is sort of assumed by me in this dialectic.

no chance

I believe both of our sides come across as more juvenile than the arguments actually exist in our own heads.

For some reason I'm reminded of Andre the Giant's monologue in "The Princess Bride" when he talks about the difference in fighting a group of people and just one person. While that may not help the "juvenile" aspect of things, that's more of the point I'm standing on:

People here have the talent to be good competitive players and just because they play in pubs doesn't mean they can't learn the 6v6 style of play. Yes, it would take time, but ,yes, they could do it.

People are players first, style comes second. Whether you hone 32-player frag fests or competition skills, you are honing skills. It's like saber vs. epee in fencing. Each are tactically different; you give them both a foil, and they will approach it via their filter of learning. Both will be able to achieve proficiency, but they will achieve it differently.

I don't mean to communicate disrespect to any clan or competitive player, but posturing as superior (which may not be everyone's intent, but it's how it comes across) solely based on comparing apples to oranges doesn't necessarily work out.

I'm by no means saying that pubstars are the cat's meow, but I'm also saying that not giving people their due isn't a way to endear yourself to the culture of SourceOP.

Why is it so important to prove that SourceOP players can't hack it?

[Drunken F00l]

Let's get one or two or three teams together for the CEVO tournament. Registration is free, so if you're free Monday and Thrusday nights, why not?

[Schwarz]

no chance

wall of text

I havent played in 2 months, but I'm assuming everyone plays the same krit spamming shit and couldn't cut it in cevo. Possibly twl, ugc, or some shit

[Agua]

Wall o' text

I havent played in 2 months, but I'm assuming everyone plays the same krit spamming shit and couldn't cut it in cevo. Possibly twl, ugc, or some shit

I've been playing on the no crit server and trying to get people to come, but mostly it's people completely new to tf2 or source.

Not everyone plays the spamming shit...but some people do like it and are content with that, this does not concern them.

Let's get one or two or three teams together for the CEVO tournament. Registration is free, so if you're free Monday and Thrusday nights, why not?

I'm available on Mondays.

[getthere1tme]

Thanks for the kind words all. Schwarz, come pub with us some time, you suicidal bastard.

Agua, I think you underestimate the time and organization that goes into putting together a competitive team. Good communication, knowledge of the game from pub play experience, and talent simply aren't enough. Excluding my scouting partner, after pulling 4 of the (in my opinion) best players from SourceOP, we were still at the bottom of the competitive barrel, even after a great deal of practice. The amount of talent, comm, and strat required to succeed in a competitive format can't even be compared to anything in pubs. Only after many many months of steady practice have we, H2O, been able to compete on a mid CEVO-F level. If you care to test your theory, I'm more than willing to accept any challenge.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a lot of SourceOPians and talented pub players lack the potential to be competitive. I simply mean that without any competitive experience, ANY 6 players you consider talented and qualified will have a great deal of problems performing in a 6v6 format. If you're just assuming this fact, then sure, with enough elbow grease there are a lot of people who can step up but the point is that there is no quick transition and there are very few traits other than raw skill that carry over from pubbing to competitive play.

For us, it took months of steady practice, 3-4 hours a night, 4 nights a week. In addition, I had a very basic understanding of competitive strategy when the team started that I could relay to my team. yay also helped us out a great deal when it came to plugging leaks in our game. Since then, I've taken it upon myself to watch a ton of pro game footage so I can build on what we know. Likewise, my teammates have also had a ton of suggestions and insight as they became more proficient. The commitment to stick to it and control your emotions during a heated match or a rolling also helps. Starting out your team will get beat down by everyone and everything playing. Some new teams dissipate due to rage, lack of leadership or, hopelessness.

What I'm trying to say is, that some people simply don't have what it takes to play competitively. Also, if you're saying that any 6 people of your choosing can come together and form a team and succeed, then you're right, but only after a ton of effort and at that point the argument that they're "coming from pubs" blurs because essentially everyone "comes from pubs" in one form or another.

You also shouldn't expect near competitive play from a pro rotation server. Even on the 16 man pro like chro, insane like train, where extremely talented competitive players hang out, you'll still see lack of communication, bad class make up, general pub habits, etc. Competitive players pub for a break from the seriousness of competition and just want to kill bitches. Pubs are just different and there's no pub that will ever play like a serious match.

Edit: REKINDLE THE SOURCEOP TOURN DF. You know you want to.

[trover4]

I doubt the sourceop tournament will ever be "rekindled" without frost making it happen. Which his lack of interest in it since he got his internet grounded by his parents in december is a pretty good sign that he won't step in. Plus there were a lot of failing parts of the tournament that needed worked out anyway (mainly team selection). I've thought about personally redoing it outside of SourceOP with my own ideas on how it should be done. But my life experiences tells me there needs to be 3-4 committed people leading the progress on the tournament. Basically it needs to go back to step 1 rethought out and redone.

as for getthere1time's post...thanks for putting that a little more indepth, but i do feel like playing in a public server like pro like chro, insane like train...d7 like a mini-mall...or the Lost Continents are a huge step up then playing with about 15 or so new/bad filler players than are found on the sourceop 32 man servers. However i see the pro rotation server is a step in the right direction but i find it filled with new players as well.

As for Agua...I understand that you think the competitive players come across as elitists. But its a completely different way to play. I've seen competitive players that do well in tournaments/scrims that are mediocre at best in a normal pub game. Just as yay! said some people just have skills more suited towards competitive play than a normal pub game.

[Agua]

As for Agua...I understand that you think the competitive players come across as elitists. But its a completely different way to play. I've seen competitive players that do well in tournaments/scrims that are mediocre at best in a normal pub game. Just as yay! said some people just have skills more suited towards competitive play than a normal pub game.

Competitive players can come across as elitist, but not all of them do.

The one thing I like about the competition players is they don't constantly remind people who/what they are [not a stab at Hell-met as he has timing, execution, and, dare I say, style?.]. They lay back and do their thing and don't make a fuss--usually the mark of a solid professional. Personally, I wish they would communicate more. That way some of the, shall we call them "hopeful crossovers," would get a taste of what good communication can accomplish. That being said, I guess I can understand the desire to just shut off and do something that doesn't resemble the pacing of competition.

While I concede that taking six players and getting them up to snuff would take work, I believe it could be done. What saddens me is that the some of the people who could be really good at competition play don't have a desire for it--which of course kills it.

Even if it wasn't a SourceOP tourney, it might be cool to have an invite only night some time that focuses on competition play to see if people want to cross over. Maybe have a person from H20 on each team to be the "guide" so to speak and let people get a taste of what comp play is all about. Thoughts?

[Hell-met]

[not a stab at Hell-met as he has timing, execution, and, dare I say, style?.]

Dammit I don't brag!

I post scoreboard pictures only because I'm surprised of my effectiveness by simply having a better computer.